A Dialogue So Dangerous, It Just Might Bring You Wisdom | John Vervaeke and Jordan Hall | EP 532

Tue, 25 Mar 2025 13:44:49 +0000

Dr. Jordan B. Peterson sits down with John Vervaeke and Jordan Hall. They discuss the vertical dimension, proper orientation within the hierarchy of values, the normative versus the ethical, and what makes something more “real” in a pragmatic and philosophical sense.

Dr. John Vervaeke is an associate professor of psychology and cognitive science at the University of Toronto. Vervaeke publishes and conducts research on the nature of intelligence, rationality, wisdom, and meaning in life, emphasizing relevance realization, non-propositional kinds of knowing, and 4E cognitive science.

Jordan Hall, previously known as Jordan Greenhall, is an entrepreneur and systems thinker with a focus on the intersection of technology, culture, and governance. Hall co-founded DivX, Inc., a pioneer in digital video technology, where he served as CEO and executive chairman through its early growth and IPO. Prior to that, he was a key figure at MP3.com, helping to revolutionize the digital music space. His early career also includes a brief stint as a lawyer, having earned his law degree from Harvard before transitioning into technology leadership and investment.

This episode was filmed on December 27th, 2024.

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| Links |

For Jordan Hall:

On X https://x.com/jgreenhall?ref_s....rc=twsrc%5Egoogle%7C

On YouTube https://www.youtube.com/channe....l/UCMzT-mdCqoyEv_-YZ

For John Vervaeke:

On X https://x.com/drjohnvervaeke?lang=en

On Youtube https://www.youtube.com/user/johnvervaeke

Website https://johnvervaeke.com/

Find John Vervaeke on Lectern http://lectern.teachable.com/

| Chapters |

(0:00) Coming up
(0:54) Intro
(4:30) The vertical dimension
(9:35) Defining what is “worthwhile” in a hierarchy of values
(13:10) Origin, orientation, and ostension
(21:50) The superordinate figure and his antithesis
(24:58) Conscience is knowing yourself through a normative lens
(31:58) A parallel notion of Hall’s constructural framework: wolf packs
(33:02) Macro rules and micro rules: the normative versus the ethical
(35:30) How to lead an ethical but pointless life — and how to live better
(39:56) A marker for deeper “realness” is inexhaustible intelligibility
(43:36) Play as a motivational state or voluntary necessity, Tolstoy’s existential dread
(48:30) Plato’s central argument: finite transcendence
(52:20) The central evil is self-destruction
(1:00:20) Is the gap between religion and science the concept of play?
(1:03:35) The superego, Atheism, and the paradox of pointlessness
(1:09:48) The truly fundamental as immediately self-evident
(1:11:42) Do you believe your suffering is wrong?
(1:12:55) Self deception leads to self destruction
(1:15:16) Vervaeke’s theory of omission
(1:19:26) The sin that cannot be forgiven
(1:24:39) Argument, despair, and calling to the spirits that orient you upwards
(1:28:26) When Hall realized our culture lies
(1:33:50) One of largest unsolved problems in human organization
(1:39:33) Is there a uniting ethos that can bring permanent stability?

// LINKS //

Peterson Academy https://petersonacademy.com
ARC https://www.arcforum.com

Books - https://www.jordanbpeterson.com/books/